Sunday, January 16, 2011

The Fundamentalist Argument Clinic. Part 2

The following discussion thread, which I reproduce below, first appeared on the Christian web site Network Norwich and Norfolk, although it has since been censored. The thread is, in my opinion, instructive and I hope in due course to draw out the lessons in a later post.

We are at the start of an argument between two fundamentalists one of whom is accusing the other of compromise on issue of geocentricity. Strange though it may seem there are still Christians out there who, based on their view off the Bible, believe in a geocentric cosmos. The geocentric believer ("GB") has just accused a Young Earth Creationist ("GS") with compromise. It was GS who actually started the thread by accusing Christian evolutionists of courting blasphemy. (See part 1) It is the turn of our YEC, GS, to reply to GB

g.s. (Guest)
That is a different matter.

My Comment: GS is man of few words; he can only assert, he cannot or will not reason. Given that he accusing Christian evolutionists of something tantamount to blasphemy you would think that the least he could do would be to take the trouble to get some Biblical evidence together to support his case. His short reply to GB betrays a desire to get off a subject that is likely to confound him and get back onto to familiar ground. For GS this is all a very annoying distraction.

geocentric believer (Guest)
No it isn't. Copernicanism is as evil as Darwinism. In fact Darwinism is just another type of Copernicanism applied to the animal Kingdom, making man insignificant, just like Copernicanism does. Copernicanism came before Darwinism and is the thin end of the wedge that takes us away from the Word of God. If you believe in Copernicanism you are a compromising the clear Word of God.

My Comment: Ironically I agree there is conceptual link between Copernicanism and Darwinism; I will be coming back to this matter in another post.

g.s. (Guest)
If you read the Bible properly, you will see that the scriptures are in harmony with the copernican world view. Evolution is an entirely different thing. It is at odds with the word of God. It is a blasphemous theory, and deeply offensive towards Christians.

My Comment: GS has managed to get to together all of 3 sentences, but once again it’s sheer assertion; in spite of all the vehement affirmation about what the Bible says GS seldom uses it. He is just parroting the line put out by his sect

geocentric believer (Guest)
Clearly .. you are not reading the Bible properly. The Bible teaches the Earth is stationary. Joshua 10:13 says: "And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day."
      As I keep trying to tell you g.s. Darwinism is linked to Copernicanism. In belittling God's created Earth Copernicanism paved the way for Darwinism. Christians like yourself who have compromised with the first blasphemy of Copernicanism have only got themselves to blame for the blasphemy of Darwinism.

My Comment: To give a robust and clear meaning to such terms as “the sun stood still” would require quite a technical discussion about motion. But GB is likely to think this as entirely unnecessary because to him everything is crystal clear and he takes it for granted that his mindset about motion is up to the task of spiritually indicting someone – as does GS. GB thinks his position is so obviously corroborated by the "plain teaching" of scripture that anyone who disagrees must have a bad conscience. However, let’s take a little pleasure in the fact that GS is getting a good dose of his own medicine!

Lord Ipsulot (Guest) 06/11/2010 13:47
Hi g.s., how nice to read another one of your contributions again. So, here it is: I accept the theory of evolution to be accurate (as against "believe"). Moreover, I think the bible is a load of old bunk, made by people who were - at best - not too well informed. Am I a blasphemer now? What will happen to me?

My Comment: This is an atheist who calls himself “Lord Ipsulot”. Although more articulate than GS he too only indulges in “argument clinic” assertion. His attempt to make a distinction between “accurate” and “belief” fails given that his sentence is naturally rendered as “I believe the theory of evolution to be accurate”!!

Mike 2 (Guest) 07/11/2010 16:18
Well well well. It seems that the bible is the authoritative text on just about everything then. I don't know what to say other than It Must Be Wrong Then Musn't It?

My Comment: Up pops another atheist called Mike 2 (to distinguish him from Mike 1 if you wondered). He’s usually a lot better than Lord Ipsulot at engaging, but at the moment he seems gob-smacked and “I don’t know what to say…..” really sums things up for him. Who can blame him.

geocentric believer (Guest) 07/11/2010 20:42
g.s. does not obey the clear geocentric teaching of the bible. He is compromising with science.

My Comment: Yes, we've already heard that GB. Interesting, however, is the link to the geocentric web site. It’s the same site I considered on my physics blog  here.

g.s. (Guest) 08/11/2010 12:48
This so-called geocentric idea is at variance with the Bible as I read it, just like evolution.

My Comment: This is now looking like an argument clinic exchange,  the kind of “oh yes it is / oh no it isn’t” stuff you get at the pantomime.

geocentric believer (Guest) 08/11/2010 17:34
Then you are clearly not reading the Bible correctly. Where in the Bible does it say the Earth moves round the Sun?

My Comment…well you’ve got to concede it – he’s got a point in that last sentence!

g.s. (Guest) 08/11/2010 17:56
Where in the Bible does it say that the sun moves around the earth?

My Comment: … GS has let himself in for it now…look at this:

geocentric believer (Guest) 08/11/2010 18:41
Easy; the Bible implies that the Sun moves - Ecclesiastes 1:5 says:
"The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose." Over to you g.s.

My Comment: Advantage GB! GS really ought to learn to use his Bible! Whatever do they teach him at his fundangelical chapel?

Mike 2 (Guest) 08/11/2010 19:20
That may be so, but just because it is written in the bible, it does not mean it is correct. The bible is well known to be wrong on many counts. Nor does it mean that relative motion is precluded. Wake up man, the universe runs on relative motion. It is impossible to say that you have no motion unless you devise some method of measuring your dopler shift relative to the 3K background radiation which appears pretty constant in all directions. Your standpoint is demonstrably rediculous, so why do you persist?

My Comment: Good points Mike 2 but you are wasting your breath – these two Biblical sectarians are not in the least bit interested in science – they debunk it as “man’s reasoning". The riposte from GB is all too predictable:

geocentric believer (Guest) 08/11/2010 19:33
..because I believe the Bible and not science; unlike g.s. who merely claims he believes the Bible, but in fact disobeys it and follows the blasphemy of copernicanism.
Mike2: If you want to find out more about absolute motion, follow the link I have provided.

My Comment: Re: the Geocentricty link. GB feels he can leave all his scientific problems in the hands the incorrigible Dr Bouw,  a geocentrist; although I hesitate to call him a "geocentrist scientist". GB is effectively saying: “I don’t do science – go and see Dr Bouw”. He is thereby relieved of the responsibility of defending the technical merit of his position, and he can then thoughtlessly mouth off scripture, tacitly assuming he knows what it means, thus giving him the pretext to accuse “compromisers” of heinous sin.

g.s. (Guest) 08/11/2010 23:08
Whenever the science and the Bible are at variance, it is the Holy Bible that is correct at all times. So it seems therefore you are correct geocentric believer. Thanks for the link.

My I seeing things? Surely GS isn’t acquiescing that easily? In fact is this the real uncompromising GS we've all grown to love?

Mike 2 (Guest) 09/11/2010 07:31
Then you both live in a world of phantasy. How sad that you cannot even attempt to reconcile science with your religion.

My Comment: Poor old Mike 2 is in despair!

geocentric believer (Guest)
So g.s. do I take it that you are in agreement that the whole universe revolves round the Earth in one day?

My Comment: I don’t think GB can believe this is happening ! Must admit, it does look fishy.

g.s. (Guest)
If that's what it says in the Bible, then yes.

geocentric believer (Guest)
..and do you believe the Bible says that?

g.s. (Guest)
If the Bible says it, it settles it for me.

My (Whispered) Comment: I'm not sure GS is entirely convinced; he is being evasive.

geocentric believer (Guest)
g.s.: Congratulations on joining the geocentrists! Spread the message about the blasphemy of copernicanism, the precursor of Darwinism!

My Comment: This apparently lame outcome certainly wasn’t expected. So is it really all settled with two uncompromising fundagelicals actually managing to come to an agreement? Not in a month of fundagelical Sunday Services, as we shall see…

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