Friday, February 25, 2011

Fundamentalist Argument Clinic Part 3

The following discussion thread, which I reproduce below, first appeared on the Christian web site Network Norwich and Norfolk, although it has since been censored. The thread is, in my opinion, instructive and I hope in due course to draw out the lessons in a later post.

In the last part of this series it would appear that a geocentric Christian fundamentalist has convinced a YEC fundamentalist that geocentricity is the teaching of the Bible. I was confounded by this outcome as I had always assumed that fundamentalists are extrenely unreasonable and not open to persuasion especially by other fundamentalists. However, as we shall see business returns to normal in this section of the thread.

As you read this thread you need to be mindful of "Poe's Law" which states that parodies of fundamentalism are all but indistinguishable from the real thing.

Lord Ipsulot (Guest) 12/11/2010 12:43
Hi g.s.
At least you are not trying to hijack the brilliant discovery made by Mr. Charles Darwin like some, by trying to involve god in it.

My Comment: Our simple minded atheist commentator would much prefer that all theists were as simple minded as GS. The atheist dogmatist's job would then be as easy as shooting fish in barrel.

geocentric believer (Guest) 12/11/2010 16:37
Yes, Darwinism and God must be kept in holy separation. To you Ipsulot Darwin is holy and therefore must be kept separate from unholy religion. I agree, except that you have got your holiness and unholiness categories switched round. But Ispolute, my son, you have correctly perceived the need for separation. Perhaps you are more spiritual than you think, much more spiritual than James Knight who mixes up God and evolution.

My Comment:  Like Ipsulot our fundamentalist geocentrist (GB) hates a three or four cornered gun fight. They much prefer a simple polarised world view of "us vs. them"

Mike 2 (Guest) 12/11/2010 17:10
Hi Lord Ipsulot,
Depressing to read this nonsense isn't it? You know, when I see stuff like this, I sometimes think there's no hope for the human race and that eventually reason will give way to the stupidity of religious dogma. It seems as though it doesn't matter how clearly and demonstrably wrong something is, these guys will just go on believing it just because its written in the bible. They will stand there and tell you that black is white all day long.
Where have they gone wrong in their lives to become so obsessed. Has our education system let them down, or have they been got-at from an early age by some over-zealous religious fruitcake? The nutters of Network Norwich eh!

My Comment: You can hardly blame Mike 2 for being well and truly put off religion. When I look in this "mirror" I sometimes wonder why I call myself a "Christian".

geocentric believer (Guest) 12/11/2010 17:42
I think you will find mike 2, my son, that you have availed your self of the opportunity to publish on Network Norwich far more than us geocentrists. To me it looks more like the "atheists and compromisers of Network Norwich"!

My Comment: GB shows typical egocentric fundamentalist arrogance; everyone is rotten through and through except him and his sect.

Lord Ipsulot (Guest) 12/11/2010 23:46
Greetings Mike 2.
The level of irrational nonsense displayed on this site is indeed quite astonishing. Mind you, I am not so sure about "geocentric believer". Seems to me he is only joking about the whole thing.

Mike 2 (Guest) 13/11/2010 08:35
Yes, I am also suspicious that he is a wind-up merchant and that poor old g.s. is the target of his humour. After all, why else would he write such nonsense?

My Comment: Cue "Poe's Law"!

geocentric believer (Guest) 13/11/2010 10:15
...I write "such nonsense" because it is the clear teaching of Bible. As g.s. must surely see his devotion to the Bible requires his assent to geocentricism.
This is not humour, it's about following the clear teaching of the Bible. I don't expect you to understand Mike 2 because you are not born of the spirit and don't understand the things of God.
Have you looked at that web set yet Mike 2? If you do you'll realise that it's not nonsense, but serious Biblically based science.

My Comment: Appeal to the inner light of the Holy Spirit is the fundamentalist and fideist way of dodging a reasoned engagement. Basically it's a form of Christian gnosticism. (See my introduction in part 1)

Lord Ipsulot (Guest) 13/11/2010 18:57
Yeah sure.

My Comment: Read that as "I'm Ipsulotely clueless about the fundamentalist mindset, so where do I go from here?"  

geocentric believer (Guest) 14/11/2010 11:44
Yes I am sure; just like you my good Lord Ibsulote. We have quite a lot in common in an opposite sort of way don't we?

My Comment: ....he's probably right: Ipsulot is likely to be as epistemically arrogant as GB.

Mike 2 (Guest) 14/11/2010 17:10
Then if you're not a wind-up merchant geo-b, then I truly feel sorry for you. I think you need a bit of one-to-one with the good James Knight.

My Comment: The atheist Mike 2 is not a bad guy at all. He can see that there is theism and theism just as there is atheism and atheism. James Knight, by the way, is a Christian who writes for Network Norwich and Norfolk.

geocentric believer (Guest) 15/11/2010 16:59
Ahh! So you are a bit of a fan of James Knight! Like I said this site is full of atheists and compromisers.

My Comment: ...meaning that James Knight is the sort of "compromiser" GB despises. In GB's books "epistemic humility" is likely to be identified as compromise.

Lord Ipsulot (Guest) 16/11/2010 16:27
Geo, yes, I believe we do have a few things in common. g.s., is it getting too much for you?

g.s. (Guest) 17/11/2010 13:10

My Comment: GS is lost for words (as usual). It is not a case of it getting too much for GS because it always was too much for GS

(Guest) 21/11/2010 17:15
Well thats the end of anythig interesting and radical debated on here now that "Big Brother" and the powers that be insist you are on the membership list and can censor you if you do not agree with their questionable spiritual practices. Mind you its been like that for years not just here but among the various groups. R1 R2 legacy of self appointed apostles and pastors heavy shepherding of the gullible still in tact here in Nowich.
What else would you expect when its run by the Wimber-ites and those that have an endless history of splits and division,jelousy who desire to be kings.. "facilitate christian fellowship", yes as long as its on certain ones terms, accompanied with trumpet blowing.
So watch this site for yet more back slapping pseudo spiritual claptrap masquerading as a move of God.

Timothy V Reeves (Guest) 23/11/2010 19:46
Hello Brother XXX old son!

(Guest) 23/11/2010 19:53
xxx is dead. Long live guest!

Timothy V Reeves (Guest) 23/11/2010 20:23
..well that rather clinches it doesn't it, as only xxx would know whether or not xxx is "dead" - as if that very characteristic line of forthright rhetoric wasn't enough to clinch it! No look here Brother XXX, you may have some interesting points there, but why on this thread? You see I was thinking of doing one of my blog entries on this particular thread as it's content intrigues me. Trouble is, now that you have made an appearance there is a distinct danger that Brother Keith will get "deleter's delirium" and bang goes my thread!

(Guest) 25/11/2010 13:38
That raises an interesting question about consciousness after death.
Would xxx know if he was dead or not? What about soul sleep? What about the two parts of Hades, Abrahams bosom? The souls of the martys under the alter "how long" etc etc. Ooppps I digress, is that deleters digit deliberating above us?!
One thing is clear, Christ is raised from the dead and so are we. We are already in ressurection.

Timothy V Reeves (Guest) 25/11/2010 21:37
Interesting questions? My foot! "Guest" simply meant that the label XXX was dead! XXX has simply been re-badged!

My Comment:  A joker in the pack suddenly  makes an appearance; namely, "Brother Triple-X" from the Witness Lee Brotherhood, a fundamentalist sect who (of course) want to "recover" the whole church to the Witness Lee way of doing church. Their enhanced sectarianism gives me a "professional" interest in them; hence I've made an appearance here in order to draw Brother Triple-X into the fray giving us a five or six cornered gun-fight! For Triple-X all this is beneath his hyper-spirituality: To him the "soulish"  GB and GS are badly in need to being "recovered" to the true spirituality of the "blended" brotherhood. He is probably making a very frustrated appearance here after having no doubt been censored by the moderator on another thread.

g.s. (Guest) 04/12/2010 15:57
All Christians must refute Darwin's ideas, and offer the truth of the gospel to everyone. Thus saving millions from the fires of hell.

My Comment: That's so extreme that I'm feeling the effects of Poe's Law at this point! GS wants to get back to the subject. I can't imagine why because he is so utterly out of his depth. But then like Triple-X he is so utterly assured of his own brand of fundamentalism that he knows the Holy Spirit is testifying to both apostates and heathen of the truth of his version of unreason. Thus, he "assists" the Holy Spirit by threatening hell and damnation.

geocentric believer (Guest) 05/12/2010 21:59
But don't forget g.s. Copernicanism came first. It demoted God's place for the Earth by removing it from the spatial origin of His Creation, just as the claimed billions of years removed the Earth from the temporal origin of Creation. Copernicanism paved the way for an Old Earth and Darwinism. What you should be saying is: All Christians must refute Copernicanism, and offer the truth of the gospel to everyone. Thus saving millions from the tortures of hell.

My Comment: This point (which GB keeps repeating) is interesting and telling. I will be coming back to it as I have already said.

g.s. (Guest) 06/12/2010 17:25
Copernicanism is not the issue here. Besides, it is not in conflict with the Scriptures.

geocentric believer (Guest) 06/12/2010 21:50
I gather, then, that it was "another" g.s. who said:
"So it seems therefore you are correct geocentric believer. Thanks for the link."
We are back to square one with you disobeying God's Word and compromising with science. Let me warn you for the second time: The Bible implies that the Sum moves - Ecclesiastes 1:5 says:
"The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose."
Once again, over to you g.s. Let me advise that you start using scripture to prove your points.

geocentric believer (Guest) 08/12/2010 15:56
Yes it does matter: How can you make claims to discovering the accuracy of the Bible if you subscribe to Copernicanism? Have you got any scriptures to support Copernicanism? I think you know the answer to that question g.s. - No! In fact do you use your Bible at all other than to parrot what other people tell you it says?

geocentric believer (Guest) 08/12/2010 18:07 can you ask people to refute evolution when you are not also asking them to refute copernicanism which is clearly against the word of God? This looks like hypocrisy to me g.s. and atheists will see through it as hypocrisy.

My Comment: We are well and truly back on track:  This will make any argument clinic proud: We are going round in circles again!

g.s. (Guest) 08/12/2010 18:26
So you are an atheist.....thought so.....explains it all.

My Comment: Even a fundamentalist can feel the force of Poe's law!

geocentric believer (Guest) 08/12/2010 18:41
You're getting desperate if that crass response is anything to go by. Have you looked at that link I provided? Can you start using the Word to justify your Copernican position? For the third time:The Bible implies that the Sun moves - Ecclesiastes 1:5 says: "The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose." For the third time, over to you g.s. Third time lucky? I doubt it, I don't believe in luck any more than I believe in hypocrites

geocentric believer (Guest) 08/12/2010 22:53
BTW g.s. you will find that geocentrist scholar Dr Gerardus D. Bouw agrees with me about your hypocrisy (See here
"Evolutionists, atheists, and agnostics in the know can easily shame creationists on the issue of geocentricity by simply pointing out the hypocrisy of their insistence that the days in Genesis 1 are literal while the rising and setting of the sun is not."
Are you now going to accuse Dr Bouw of being an atheist?

g.s. (Guest) 08/12/2010 23:20
I never asked you to bring in this "copernican" stuff. Let us concentrate on the fallacy of Darwinism. Like I asked before: when did anyone witness a monkey giving birth to a human? Going on the theory of evolution such a thing must happen every now and again, right? But so far no one has ever seen it happen. Yet evolutionists insist on holding on to this nonsense. They just invent the irrational presupposition that species simply "evolved", and that therefore the Bible must be wrong. Yet they fail to produce one bit evidence to support their assumption. I feel that there is something different at work here; something very sinister, which has more to do with satanism than with science. Sadly, there are also some Christians who pander to this abhorrence by suggesting that the Holy Scripture and evolution are both true. By doing so, they give some level of credibility to atheism. We must stay true to our faith at all times, our Lord demands no less. Evolution is incompatible with the Bible.

My Comment: Heck, GS has written a whole paragraph. GB must be getting to him. But notice once again, it's just sheer ignorant assertion. In his own words he fails to produce one bit evidence to support his assumptions !

geocentric believer (Guest) 09/12/2010 18:59
As I have tried to make clear above, Copernicanism, in subtly devaluing the pinnacle of God's creation here on Earth is the thin end of the Satanic wedge. It paves the way for Darwinism in devaluing man's place in God's plan. Therefore we cannot proceed with a critique of Darwinism without a critique of Copernicanism. The two go hand in hand. In any case as I have said above to hold to Copernicanism and yet to reject Darwinism is hypocrisy. So g.s. stop sitting on the fence.
BTW: I'm no evolution buff but even I know that evolutionists are not saying that a monkey one day gave birth to a human. You really need to get your facts straight first.

My Comment: GB keeps repeating this same point about a link between Darwinism and Copernicanism. The dimwit GS just won't engage it. This is the point I will come back to in due course.

g.s. (Guest) 09/12/2010 23:38
I still don't understand why you keep bringing up this copernicanism stuff; it has nothing to do with it.
Do you or do you not agree that evolution is basphemy against God?

My Comment: Of course GS doesn't understand, he's all but brain dead.

geocentric believer (Guest) 10/12/2010 00:20
In answer to your question: Yes. Now will you please answer my question: Do you or do you not agree that Copernicanism is basphemy against God? Depending on how you answer that question you will then understand or not understand, as the case may be, why I keep bringing up this "Copernicanism stuff"

geocentric believer (Guest) 14/12/2010 18:31
Four days and still no answer from g.s.

My Comment: GS obviously had to think long and hard about this one: 

g.s. (Guest) 16/12/2010 17:30
It is the popular believe that there is no centre in the universe. This has not been proved or disproved. To Christians it is clear that Gods reation (relation?) is the centre. But the question of the earth's physical position is less important than the spiritual reality of God's love for his people. If nothing else, the earth is the spiritual center of the universe.

My Comment: Ironically a similar argument could be invoked in regard to GS's YEC philosophy.

Mike 2 (Guest) 17/12/2010 17:27
Yes g.s., and what's more the dinosaurs also believed that to be the case some 60 million years ago. The truth of it was revealed to them just seconds before the impact.

My Comment: Worthy point Mike 2, but you are wasting your time here I'm afraid to say!

geocentric believer (Guest) 17/12/2010 18:22
...and such imaginary scenerios show us why Copernicanism stinks and g.s. won't admit it. Copernicanism set us up for all this rot about us being just an accident in a remote and obscure corner of the universe with no special status to protect us from apocalyptic meteor impacts. And g.s. foolishly thinks it's unimportant.

g.s. (Guest) 17/12/2010 23:57
You have a very narrow-minded world view geo.

My Comment:  A case of the pot calling the kettle black I think! 

geocentric believer (Guest) 18/12/2010 17:02
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it - mat 7:14
In any case I am sure there are many on this web site who would accuse you, g.s. of having a narrow-minded world view. What's wrong with being narrow? But how narrow is "narrow"?

(Guest) 22/12/2010 00:04
Network Norwich. Shame on you. Keith. John and John.
You are not what you think you are.

geocentric believer (Guest) 22/12/2010 00:33
Don't tell me Mr. XXX, another of your forum threads has been nuked by Keith and co? Now look here my man, me and brother g.s are having a nice civilised Christian discussion and the last thing we want is another "Local Church verses all them others" fight breaking out on our nice cosy peaceful thread. Next thing you know, all our comments have gone to thread heaven.

My  Comment: Triple-X uses this thread to make his protest after being censored elsewhere; in fact it is probable the whole thread he was contributing to was deleted - clearly a destiny that GB thinks is likely for this particular thread now that Triple-X has appeared. Triple-X is, needless to say, as dismissive of "all them others" as are GB and GS. Consequently, the vitriol arising when Triple-X and his brothers engaged posters, especially  ex-WLB members, made threads unmanageable and they were often deleted wholesale. This vitriol is comprehensible when one understands that the WLB considers that all who are not with the sect to be, by default, against it; the WLB demands ultimate acquiescence or else.  ("Local Church", by the way, is another name for the Witness Lee Brotherhood)


And that folks, was the end of that! As GB predicted the thread suddenly disappeared for unaccounted reasons. Its destruction seemed to come out of the blue just like that meteor which Mike 2 spoke of. As if they were its lumbering dinosaur inhabitants GS, GB  and Triple-X went the way of the thread. And yet the thread is such a gem, such a microcosm of fundagelicalism. The wallahs at NN&N deleted it presumably oblivious of just what this thread was trying to tell us about the state of  modern fundagelicalism. be continued

GB feasts on GS, but  something comes along to spoil the party.

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